I was reading a very interesting article written by a member of the Iglesia ni Cristo 1914 (INC). In this article, it is argued that "it is not true that anyone can UNDERSTAND the bible".
They stated a consequence against Evangelicals which is similar to the argument thrown by Roman Catholics: "That’s why there are thousands of sects/denominations, each having different beliefs depends on how its pastor/founder interpret the bible but they do have the basic doctrine, the sola fide, and sola scriptura."
Private interpretation is also criticized, "Apostle Peter strongly pointed out that the bible was not a book open to understanding of just any knowledgeable individual. This he made certain in a letter he sent to the Christians in his time:
“knowing this first: that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in olden times by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." II pet. 1:20-21"
The article goes on to say that, "We need someone who received the Holy spirit from God whom he entrusted to preach the truth for everyone will know the message of salvation." Of course, this "someone" is ultimately the ministers of the INC and not from other religions.
Okay, some of you already know what to ask next: How do I recognize the true messengers of God among the many preachers of other religions? If you will read the comments section of the article, I asked a similar question. Read on to learn the shortcoming of the INC's article (mine in blue, the INC in brown):
Sir,
If we need a true messenger to understand the Bible, how can we tell if a person who preaches the Bible is indeed a true messenger?
Thanks.
Gerry
--------------------
readme: gerry,
your question is already answered above, ill just quote it:
How can we know?
Examine their doctrines, be open minded always because it is everyone’s duty to search for the true knowledge we should learn and will bring us to our salvation.
“For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.” I Cor. 2:11-13
compare spiritual things with spiritual, is like compare doctines with the doctrines upholds by other churches, and you will make it to a point of knowing the true messengers of God.
it is but to the teachings and doctrines that they preach in the bible...
http://readmeinc.blogspot.com/2009/08/prophecy-gods-last-messenger.html
--------------------
Thank you for your response, Sir.
However, it's giving us problems here. There are so many preachers out there claiming to be God's messenger. The only way to tell which preacher is telling the truth is by the Bible. But you wrote above that "it is not true that anyone can UNDERSTAND the bible". So how do you expect me to tell which is true or not?
Roman Catholics say they are biblical
Protestants say they are biblical
ADD say they are biblical
Mormons say they are biblical
7th Day Adventist say they are biblical
INC say they are biblical
and many more..
Your article implies that there is no way for me to tell which are telling the truth because I cannot understand the Bible.
So how do I go about it?
--------------------
readme: gerry,
dont call me sir, because maybe im younger that you^^
that's my point, "IF ONLY", if only the people DOES understand the bible, why do we need thousands and thousands of religions scattered around the world?
If only we can read the bible and interpret it the way it should be, this thing would not happen,
but let us ask ourselves, why did this happen?
Satan was thrown here on earth to deceive many, it is in the bible...
Preachers have diff interests, like money, and so on...
they all claim to be true, and that's our duty, yes it is our duty to find the true one of those thousands and thousands of religion...
Ask yourself, how can you find it?
and you would answer your question...
godbless^^
--------------------
So what do you suggest I do? Do I go trial and error?
--------------------
Arjay: Arjay here! An INC member.
If you really want to find the true messengers of God, true religion, or true church, the religion should satisfy this following requirements.
(i) All of its teachings comes from the Bible.
(ii) There are no schisms in the church.
(iii) Proven by the prophesy of the Bible.
(iv) Teaches the one and only true God. (John 17:1,3)
I hope it helps :)
--------------------
I appreciate the reply, Arjay. But if you read the article above readmeinc argued that, and I quote, "it is not true that anyone can UNDERSTAND the bible", end quote.
Now you are suggesting to me that all teachings should come from the Bible. Yet it is argued above that I cannot understand the Bible. So I really can't examine the doctrines of these religions (including yours) using the Bible.
Let me ask you a question, if you cannot understand the Bible how did you arrive at the conclusion that your church is indeed true?
Thanks.
--------------------
Sidewinder: To: Gerry,
Can I give some Links to you, this one Can Help
regarding to your Question.
http://inc-pasugo.info/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=86:only-authorized-preachers&catid=49:articles&Itemid=61
http://inc-pasugo.info/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=87:only-authorized-preachers-2&catid=49:articles&Itemid=61
--------------------
Thanks for the links, Sidewinder.
However, like the article here I also find Mr. Santiago's article ironic. In part 1 he argues that only divinely commissioned messengers can understand the Bible. But in part 2 he argues that the true messengers of God are biblical. There are so many religions that say they are biblical. If I don't have the ability to understand the Bible, this means I cannot be sure which among the people claiming to be God's messengers is true and biblical.
Do you get my point?
--------------------
After that I was invited by readme to their Bible study wherein I could inquire from their ministers. I stopped the discussion at that point. None of them really answered my question satisfactorily. In all fairness, the INC I spoke with in the comments section are friendly.
So from the discussion above, you can see the implication of the INC article: Given the fact that there are so many preachers claiming to be God's messenger, and given the fact that God's messengers should be biblical in their teachings, there is no way for a person to examine and determine the true messenger since the INC above argued that no one (at least not all) can understand the Bible. That being said, it is futile for one to decide which religious group he will join because it is claimed only God's messengers can understand the Bible.
I am reminded of my previous discussion with Roman Catholics on private interpretation. Just like the Roman Catholics, the INC also abhor private interpretation. But once you ask them how did they arrive at the conclusion that their church is true without using private interpretation, you will get tons of baloney answers. Roman Catholics respond that it is not private interpretation if you arrive at a conclusion similar to what their church teaches. But that's just just a self-serving argument.
It is also argued that 2nd Peter 1:20-21 forbids private interpretation of Sciptures. But the text doesn't say it that way. It just simply say that Scriptures did not originate from private interpretation of men. But when it comes to reading the Scriptures (and listening to the preaching of Scriptures) private interpretation cannot be avoided since our own brain processes what we read and hear to arrive at a decision or response.
Also like the Roman Catholics, the INC argues that private interpretation causes division among Evangelicals which are in conflict with other interpretations. It does not necessarily follow. When two parties refuse to accept each others' interpretation, it is their attitude that causes the division. Suggesting an infallible interpreter to resolve such conflict does not work because we will burden to determine the infallible interpreter (i.e. what would be the basis of reliance for a given interpreter?). It is ironic that Roman Catholics accuse Sola Scriptura as the reason why there are so many bible-alone cults today. But what they don't see is that these cults are following the "infallible interpreter" system of Rome (i.e. only the Magisterium can infallibly interpret Scripture). The evidence? Read again the INC article and recall who has the exclusive ability to understand the Bible. Observe also how the Ang Dating Daan, Jehovah's Witnesses, the Mormons, etc. follow Rome's system.
A question maybe asked, what about the Ethopian in Acts 8? How come he needed Philip to understand the scroll of Isaiah? Yes it is true that not everyone can understand Scriptures. But this doesn't mean that the understanding is limited to the ministers. It also doesn't mean that the non-ministerial church members is perpetually dependent on the minister. The Holy Spirit works on all members of the church, not just the ministers. Members who can't understand the Bible in the present can have even some informal training to be well equipped in the future without necessarily becoming pastors. Even some of those who read the Bible even for the first time can understand it.
The proof? The Bereans in Acts 17:11 examined the Scriptures to verify the message of Paul. They didn't go to their ministerial bodies to have their interpretations checked. Consider also these verses:
Your statutes are wonderful; therefore I obey them. The unfolding of your words gives light; it gives understanding to the simple. Psalm 119:129-130
For we do not write you anything you cannot read or understand. And I hope that, as you have understood us in part, you will come to understand fully that you can boast of us just as we will boast of you in the day of the Lord Jesus. 2nd Corinthians 1:13-14
Conclusion:
As I have argued with Roman Catholics before, if private interpretation is forbidden then it follows that you just simply accept what your priest/pastor/minister are teaching you without even thinking about it. If your religious leaders are telling you that only they can interpret Scriptures, it means they don't want any opposition even if they are wrong. You are a zombie that keeps on saying, "yes master". It's ironic that the INC is against papal infallibility and yet they have this audacity to tell their members that only their ministers can interpret Scriptures properly.
They stated a consequence against Evangelicals which is similar to the argument thrown by Roman Catholics: "That’s why there are thousands of sects/denominations, each having different beliefs depends on how its pastor/founder interpret the bible but they do have the basic doctrine, the sola fide, and sola scriptura."
Private interpretation is also criticized, "Apostle Peter strongly pointed out that the bible was not a book open to understanding of just any knowledgeable individual. This he made certain in a letter he sent to the Christians in his time:
“knowing this first: that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in olden times by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." II pet. 1:20-21"
The article goes on to say that, "We need someone who received the Holy spirit from God whom he entrusted to preach the truth for everyone will know the message of salvation." Of course, this "someone" is ultimately the ministers of the INC and not from other religions.
Okay, some of you already know what to ask next: How do I recognize the true messengers of God among the many preachers of other religions? If you will read the comments section of the article, I asked a similar question. Read on to learn the shortcoming of the INC's article (mine in blue, the INC in brown):
Sir,
If we need a true messenger to understand the Bible, how can we tell if a person who preaches the Bible is indeed a true messenger?
Thanks.
Gerry
--------------------
readme: gerry,
your question is already answered above, ill just quote it:
How can we know?
Examine their doctrines, be open minded always because it is everyone’s duty to search for the true knowledge we should learn and will bring us to our salvation.
“For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.” I Cor. 2:11-13
compare spiritual things with spiritual, is like compare doctines with the doctrines upholds by other churches, and you will make it to a point of knowing the true messengers of God.
it is but to the teachings and doctrines that they preach in the bible...
http://readmeinc.blogspot.com/2009/08/prophecy-gods-last-messenger.html
--------------------
Thank you for your response, Sir.
However, it's giving us problems here. There are so many preachers out there claiming to be God's messenger. The only way to tell which preacher is telling the truth is by the Bible. But you wrote above that "it is not true that anyone can UNDERSTAND the bible". So how do you expect me to tell which is true or not?
Roman Catholics say they are biblical
Protestants say they are biblical
ADD say they are biblical
Mormons say they are biblical
7th Day Adventist say they are biblical
INC say they are biblical
and many more..
Your article implies that there is no way for me to tell which are telling the truth because I cannot understand the Bible.
So how do I go about it?
--------------------
readme: gerry,
dont call me sir, because maybe im younger that you^^
that's my point, "IF ONLY", if only the people DOES understand the bible, why do we need thousands and thousands of religions scattered around the world?
If only we can read the bible and interpret it the way it should be, this thing would not happen,
but let us ask ourselves, why did this happen?
Satan was thrown here on earth to deceive many, it is in the bible...
Preachers have diff interests, like money, and so on...
they all claim to be true, and that's our duty, yes it is our duty to find the true one of those thousands and thousands of religion...
Ask yourself, how can you find it?
and you would answer your question...
godbless^^
--------------------
So what do you suggest I do? Do I go trial and error?
--------------------
Arjay: Arjay here! An INC member.
If you really want to find the true messengers of God, true religion, or true church, the religion should satisfy this following requirements.
(i) All of its teachings comes from the Bible.
(ii) There are no schisms in the church.
(iii) Proven by the prophesy of the Bible.
(iv) Teaches the one and only true God. (John 17:1,3)
I hope it helps :)
--------------------
I appreciate the reply, Arjay. But if you read the article above readmeinc argued that, and I quote, "it is not true that anyone can UNDERSTAND the bible", end quote.
Now you are suggesting to me that all teachings should come from the Bible. Yet it is argued above that I cannot understand the Bible. So I really can't examine the doctrines of these religions (including yours) using the Bible.
Let me ask you a question, if you cannot understand the Bible how did you arrive at the conclusion that your church is indeed true?
Thanks.
--------------------
Sidewinder: To: Gerry,
Can I give some Links to you, this one Can Help
regarding to your Question.
http://inc-pasugo.info/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=86:only-authorized-preachers&catid=49:articles&Itemid=61
http://inc-pasugo.info/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=87:only-authorized-preachers-2&catid=49:articles&Itemid=61
--------------------
Thanks for the links, Sidewinder.
However, like the article here I also find Mr. Santiago's article ironic. In part 1 he argues that only divinely commissioned messengers can understand the Bible. But in part 2 he argues that the true messengers of God are biblical. There are so many religions that say they are biblical. If I don't have the ability to understand the Bible, this means I cannot be sure which among the people claiming to be God's messengers is true and biblical.
Do you get my point?
--------------------
After that I was invited by readme to their Bible study wherein I could inquire from their ministers. I stopped the discussion at that point. None of them really answered my question satisfactorily. In all fairness, the INC I spoke with in the comments section are friendly.
So from the discussion above, you can see the implication of the INC article: Given the fact that there are so many preachers claiming to be God's messenger, and given the fact that God's messengers should be biblical in their teachings, there is no way for a person to examine and determine the true messenger since the INC above argued that no one (at least not all) can understand the Bible. That being said, it is futile for one to decide which religious group he will join because it is claimed only God's messengers can understand the Bible.
I am reminded of my previous discussion with Roman Catholics on private interpretation. Just like the Roman Catholics, the INC also abhor private interpretation. But once you ask them how did they arrive at the conclusion that their church is true without using private interpretation, you will get tons of baloney answers. Roman Catholics respond that it is not private interpretation if you arrive at a conclusion similar to what their church teaches. But that's just just a self-serving argument.
It is also argued that 2nd Peter 1:20-21 forbids private interpretation of Sciptures. But the text doesn't say it that way. It just simply say that Scriptures did not originate from private interpretation of men. But when it comes to reading the Scriptures (and listening to the preaching of Scriptures) private interpretation cannot be avoided since our own brain processes what we read and hear to arrive at a decision or response.
Also like the Roman Catholics, the INC argues that private interpretation causes division among Evangelicals which are in conflict with other interpretations. It does not necessarily follow. When two parties refuse to accept each others' interpretation, it is their attitude that causes the division. Suggesting an infallible interpreter to resolve such conflict does not work because we will burden to determine the infallible interpreter (i.e. what would be the basis of reliance for a given interpreter?). It is ironic that Roman Catholics accuse Sola Scriptura as the reason why there are so many bible-alone cults today. But what they don't see is that these cults are following the "infallible interpreter" system of Rome (i.e. only the Magisterium can infallibly interpret Scripture). The evidence? Read again the INC article and recall who has the exclusive ability to understand the Bible. Observe also how the Ang Dating Daan, Jehovah's Witnesses, the Mormons, etc. follow Rome's system.
A question maybe asked, what about the Ethopian in Acts 8? How come he needed Philip to understand the scroll of Isaiah? Yes it is true that not everyone can understand Scriptures. But this doesn't mean that the understanding is limited to the ministers. It also doesn't mean that the non-ministerial church members is perpetually dependent on the minister. The Holy Spirit works on all members of the church, not just the ministers. Members who can't understand the Bible in the present can have even some informal training to be well equipped in the future without necessarily becoming pastors. Even some of those who read the Bible even for the first time can understand it.
The proof? The Bereans in Acts 17:11 examined the Scriptures to verify the message of Paul. They didn't go to their ministerial bodies to have their interpretations checked. Consider also these verses:
Your statutes are wonderful; therefore I obey them. The unfolding of your words gives light; it gives understanding to the simple. Psalm 119:129-130
For we do not write you anything you cannot read or understand. And I hope that, as you have understood us in part, you will come to understand fully that you can boast of us just as we will boast of you in the day of the Lord Jesus. 2nd Corinthians 1:13-14
Conclusion:
As I have argued with Roman Catholics before, if private interpretation is forbidden then it follows that you just simply accept what your priest/pastor/minister are teaching you without even thinking about it. If your religious leaders are telling you that only they can interpret Scriptures, it means they don't want any opposition even if they are wrong. You are a zombie that keeps on saying, "yes master". It's ironic that the INC is against papal infallibility and yet they have this audacity to tell their members that only their ministers can interpret Scriptures properly.
Your statutes are wonderful; therefore I obey them. The unfolding of your words gives light; it gives understanding to the simple. Psalm 119:129-130
ReplyDeleteFor we do not write you anything you cannot read or understand. And I hope that, as you have understood us in part, you will come to understand fully that you can boast of us just as we will boast of you in the day of the Lord Jesus. 2nd Corinthians 1:13-14
Conclusion:
As I have argued with Roman Catholics before, if private interpretation is forbidden then it follows that you just simply accept what your priest/pastor/minister are teaching you without even thinking about it. If your religious leaders are telling you that only they can interpret Scriptures, it means they don't want any opposition even if they are wrong. You are a zombie that keeps on saying, "yes master". It's ironic that the INC is against papal infallibility and yet they have this audacity to tell their members that only their ministers can interpret Scriptures properly.
>>>> 2 cor. 1: 12 For our rejoicing is this,
the testimony of our"conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with
fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and
more abundantly to you-ward. 13 For we write none other things unto you, than what ye
read or acknowledge; and I trust ye shall acknowledge even to the end; 14 As also ye have
acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also [are] ours in the day of the Lord Jesus. 15 And in this confidence Iwas minded to come unto you before, that ye might have a second benefit;
>>>> 14 As ALSO ye have acknowledged us in part.....??????? it Looks like verse 13 is associated with verse 14.
It's also associated in verse 12:
DeleteNow this is our boast: Our conscience testifies that we have conducted ourselves in the world...
As I have argued with Roman Catholics before, if private interpretation is forbidden then it follows that you just simply accept what your priest/pastor/minister are teaching you without even thinking about it. If your religious leaders are telling you that only they can interpret Scriptures, it means they don't want any opposition even if they are wrong. You are a zombie that keeps on saying, "yes master". It's ironic that the INC is against papal infallibility and yet they have this audacity to tell their members that only their ministers can interpret Scriptures properly.
ReplyDelete>>>>>>>>it means they don't want any opposition even if they are wrong,,? How?
When I read my birth certificate, i Did not dare question it. is it legitimate? is it real? is my name really this, why this name? is this true? am I male or female realy as written? was I realy born this date? was i realy born normal, testtube, or cesarian?, Was may birth weight real? I did not question because i trusted my Parents that it is true, because they where actually there when things happened, and I trusted them as they had SAID onto me.
Nice try. But are you telling me that you do not have the ability to test it now that you're a grown person? Or you don't have the willingness to do it?
Delete